• Welcome to H4O! For a reduced ad experience, please login or register with the forum.

Steering Rack Comprison

silvrzuki77

Well-Known Member
Messages
556
Location
Vegas
08H3 all the clamps bolt around the steering rack 360. Its just the difference's on how its done. Just need to look at the pictures to see whats different. PCF i thought said they were using a O ring around the rack that seats into the clamp. (I could be wrong)

4speedfunk any updates on your ABS hubs? I told AM4x4 as soon as I blow the front end up I'm dropping it off for a swap.
 

08H3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,368
Location
United States
I made a kind of confusing comment with the "360 degree clamping...". What I actually meant was that any design needs to have the piece on the back side (against the crossmember). Just replacing the strap with a machined piece won't cut it in my opinion. I may hold out a little longer just to see what the PCF pricing is going to be. Like I said in the initial post, both look like solid designs. Price will likely end up being the deciding factor for me.
 

silvrzuki77

Well-Known Member
Messages
556
Location
Vegas
Sooo you want to cut of the existing crossmember rack mounting piece? Because none of the clamps that have come are strap replacements. I did a install of the mayhem kit maybe you should take a look at it.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,673
Location
Scottsdale
Kaleb, I appreciate the physics but would it not also be fair to say the following?
  • GM designed it to have a minor amount of floating, hence the rubber bushings vs. solid ones or a direct mount
  • PCF's design has gone through field testing (and some abuse) with no negative effect, giving him the confidence that it can be sold to the public.
  • The driver's side might not be an issue: I have 85,000 on this rack, almost four years (first one was replaced due to ends wearing out, not from breakage). I've never broken this rack. I'm on my fourth passenger side mount. My driver's side bushings are in like new condition.
  • It may be premature to say that any driver's side movement is harmful or contributes to rack failure considering the above. I would agree that if the bushing has failed, it can lead to rack failure, but I would propose in those cases that the passenger side failed first leading secondarily to driver's side failure
  • Time will tell which of the various designs will be successful - it might be all, it might be none, it may be a select few. Real world use, I believe all will agree, is of far greater value than the theory of what it takes to be successful.
  • I admit I have no experience in breaking racks, but I do have experience in successful field testing of one solution. (And testing of another solution that did not hold up.)

But you do, indirectly, bring up a good point - if you don't think that a solution will work for you, don't buy it. But if you trust the manufacturer and believe in his design then that's a good reason to pick that product.
 

08H3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,368
Location
United States
Sooo you want to cut of the existing crossmember rack mounting piece? Because none of the clamps that have come are strap replacements. I did a install of the mayhem kit maybe you should take a look at it.

Not sure I entirely follow your statement. The piece indicated with the arrow does replace the stamped metal strap in the stock setup. We're probably getting hung up on semantics. Anyway, yes, I did read your install (in initial post). It's what prompted me to ask the questions.

H4O-035.jpg
 
Last edited:

Hunner

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,334
Location
Arkansas
Proper installation of any solution will also determine the result.
If testing of over 100,000 miles with one fix showed with proper installation the problem was solved, then failure of a solution installed by those less willing to do it properly can hardly be blamed on the parts.
Waiting to address this problem after running the OEM mounts far beyond their functional capacity and damaging other components in the process is also an individual's decision.
 

silvrzuki77

Well-Known Member
Messages
556
Location
Vegas
Correct the top piece replaces the strap but you have to use the lower portion also to obtain the 360 degree capture. You say potatoe i say potato lol
 

am4x4

Active Member
Messages
40
Location
simi valley, ca
There seems to be some confusion/miss communication regarding the "360 degree" comment made by the OP.

DISCLAIMER: The following info is correct for my product, I am pretty sure it is correct for the outfitter kit, and I think it is correct for PCF.

The mounting bracket that is welded to the frame is reused, the stock rubber bushing and metal "u" strap are discarded and replaced with a two piece clamp that fully circles the rack. To the best of my knowledge none of the options require replacement or modification to the mounting bracket that is welded to the frame or reuse of any other stock component of the pass side rack mount.

Here is a pic of a clamp that is loosely installed without the rack that might help clear things up for people that have not had one of these apart.CIMG3008.jpg
 

08H3

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,368
Location
United States
Yes, I confused the matter with my wording. I attempted to correct that with the post below. Sorry if my clarification was no clearer.
I made a kind of confusing comment with the "360 degree clamping...". What I actually meant was that any design needs to have the piece on the back side (against the crossmember). Just replacing the strap with a machined piece won't cut it in my opinion. I may hold out a little longer just to see what the PCF pricing is going to be. Like I said in the initial post, both look like solid designs. Price will likely end up being the deciding factor for me.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,673
Location
Scottsdale
I've been hesitant to post my full review of the PCF Steering Rack Bracket due to my role as Admin as the support of a sponsor's product could be misconstrued - but I also have a responsibility as a beta tester of this product. I'm also of the realization that some will take my review at face value and the conspiracy theorists will use or abuse my post as they see fit.

I've got about 3000-4000 miles on the Bracket and at least three off road trips, including a week in Moab, and the PCF Steering Rack Bracket has not let me down. There steering and handling fix was immediate, getting rid of a knock in my steering and eliminating the shiver that ran through my truck whenever I hit offset bumps in the road.

The real test was Moab. I had my skid plates off multiple times that week to inspect the Bracket. The rack did not move from it's fixed position. Period.

There were several tests of it, including Hell's Gate, but perhaps the biggest one was the crack on Seven Mile Rim. For those that have done this, you may recall that you hit the crack at about 30 degrees and you hold the steering wheel tight as you lower into the crack, as the ground tries hard to change the direction of the wheels. Well, when I entered it I was not paying attention and I let the ground grab the wheels and I sat in the crack with the wheels offset at 30 degrees. The safe (and smart) option would have been to back out, straighten out, and do it again.

As I sat there, I realized I could go forward by man-handling the steering and forcing it back to the right. Only two results could occur: a spectacular failure or a proven success, where the PCF Bracket held its own against an extreme circumstance. As you can guess, I was able to force the steering back to straight with no failures, no movement, no loss of alignment, no breakage. I would not have tried this with a stock setup, and without a spare steering rack nearby. This is with a four year old, 80,000 miles of wear and tear rack.

I've discussed the driver's side bushings with Dwaine and I directly questioned why he would not include those in his solution. His answer: they aren't necessary as his Bracket is designed in such a way to eliminate the need for those bushings and in fact, his solution comes closer to getting to what the OEM solution was probably supposed to be, had it been executed properly in the first place. I don't blindly follow Dwaine's answers; I mesh them with my own beliefs and of course the real world results. Here's another example of where the real world results back up his answers as the Beta testers like me have been fortunate enough to discover.

Perhaps the best way to describe the OEM rack: it's a piece of crap, designed poorly with low structural integrity. So, on that assumption, would you rather have external forces from steering absorbed by the poor construction of the rack or by the vulcanized rubber in the driver's side bushings? Should the external pounding be absorbed by a thin, weak, fixed joint or by a built in shock absorber? Think about it: GM designed the "floating" rack mounts to help compensate for the structural weakness of the OEM rack. We've all talked about strengthening one component only to cascade the failure down the line to the next component.

4speedfunk has perhaps the best solution to this mess: SAS :)
 

silvrzuki77

Well-Known Member
Messages
556
Location
Vegas
Good post up bigunit! Did 06h3 do all the same trails as you?

Am4x4 sux it! Im only intoxicated around 4pm or if my wife is talking to me. Lol
 
Last edited:

06 H3

a.k.a. "The Jackal"
Messages
9,504
Location
Meridian, ID
I did not run the same exact trails as Alex but we ran a few together.

The day Alex took a group to run seven mile Dwaine led Neo, Mike ( a rubicon owner) and I to Pritchett canyon and moab rim. Mike and I had the intentions to park our trucks at the pritchett entrance as it is one of the toughest trails in moab but we ran up to the first obstacle. Dwaine said if we couldnt make it up we wouldnt make it any farther as it only gets worse from that point on. The first obstacle had a ledge that we had to climb and it was bigger then the tires Mike and I have, which were a 35. Dwaine runs a 39 and Neo runs a 38. They made it up easy, for Mike and I we had to stack a rock on for each tire. I gave it hell and made it up! Mike surprisingly couldnt make it up.

I would say all the rack mounts in moab got a good highway, city and offroad workout. Actually I think it worked out perfect, if it wasnt for moab the amount of testing we did in one week would of normally taken months and probably the same for Alex.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Perhaps the best way to describe the OEM rack: it's a piece of crap, designed poorly with low structural integrity. So, on that assumption, would you rather have external forces from steering absorbed by the poor construction of the rack or by the vulcanized rubber in the driver's side bushings? Should the external pounding be absorbed by a thin, weak, fixed joint or by a built in shock absorber? Think about it: GM designed the "floating" rack mounts to help compensate for the structural weakness of the OEM rack. We've all talked about strengthening one component only to cascade the failure down the line to the next component.

4speedfunk has perhaps the best solution to this mess: SAS :)


Good review alex, the situation you describe is EXACTLY the kind of thing that has snapped two of mine.


As to the design issue, I understand that it was intended to have some float, which makes sense, but to me IF you want to be able to push the rack as far as it can go, you've got to eliminte it's ability to push the opposite direction from the new clamp. That's obviously talking about pushing it to the extreme, not just asking for a huge leap in strength (which the pass side clamp CLEARLY will do), but asking for AS MUCH as is possible within the constraints of the stock rack. Most folks don't "need" the absolute end all be all setup, but my take is if I'm fixing it, fix it so that it's 100% as good as I can make it... even if the other side only adds another 10% on top of the strength that the clamp adds.

Also for those looking from the sidelines, few will disagree that deflection strength rather than tensile strength is a BIG part of this, and the clamp alone, with it's wide mounting surface, especially if you pair it with a center clamp like hunner's setup, will eliminate that nearly completely, the only force left is tensile then, which is where the bushings would come into play.
 

alrock

El Diablo
Staff member
Messages
10,673
Location
Scottsdale
Well I'm comfortable with what the PCF product delivers. It hasn't failed despite my trying to get to fail; but I don't expect it to be bulletproof either. If it fails at a point where I'm trying to wheel my H3 with purpose-built rock buggies, I don't think I'll be blaming my steering rack mount for the failure.
 

jakesz28

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,056
Location
Cabool MO
I have a question for Dwaine, I'm not sure if you will want to give out exact info. But if you leave the rubber o-ring out and tighten the aluminum mount on the rack does it actually allow the two halves to come together and let the rack float? Or does it clamp the rack tightly? If it will float I would imagine that adding the o-ring then captures the rack and the percent of fill is over 85%. Much more would start to extrude the o-ring and almost make it mandatory to replace the prong any time the mount is removed? I can see how letting the rack float in the mount but capturing it with the o-ring would memick the stock set up with huge improvements.
But if you capture the rack with no movement in the aluminum mount, you would have no choice but to replace the drivers side bushings to minimize movement on that side. If one side is held without movement. Then small movements on the other side will eventually cause a crack and ultimately a broken rack.
I like the thought of a poly bushing on the drivers side and the way I think Dwaines mount works.

I still think 4speeds fix is the long term fix. But with a few people working on these a milder option like Bebes may be avaible in the future.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Well I'm comfortable with what the PCF product delivers. It hasn't failed despite my trying to get to fail; but I don't expect it to be bulletproof either. If it fails at a point where I'm trying to wheel my H3 with purpose-built rock buggies, I don't think I'll be blaming my steering rack mount for the failure.

If that's what you're doing... I'm guessing the rack won't be the limitation:wink:
 

4speedfunk

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,250
Location
Tardville
I gotta agree with BCIL on the drivers-side bushing assessment. You can't clamp one end of the rack rigidly to the frame...and leave soft bushings in the other end. It will eventually push itself apart. We've all seen this. The rack casting breaks right where the sheet metal tube portion gets pressed-on to it...and it starts to separate as you continue to use it. Eventually, it will separate to the point (1/4" to 1/2") where the rigid PS fluid tube cracks and pukes the entire system out on the trail. Its important to note that this separation is not from external forces...its from the tremendous hydraulic pressure inside the rack. The separation occurs because the drivers-side (the casting) is bolted to the frame...and the passenger-side (the steel tube) clamp is worn-out and loose. Internal pressure is what pushes the two pieces apart, and movement between the two mounting points is what allows it to crack in the first place.

What all of these guys are doing with the passenger-side clamp is great...and it needs to be done. However, they are basically reversing the same scenario by leaving the rubber bushings in place on the drivers-side. Now, instead of a sloppy p.s. clamp and firm d.s. bushings....you'll have a solid p.s. clamp, and sloppy d.s. bushings. A flemsy assembly needs to be allowed to either move together...or not move together. Rigidly attaching only one mounting point of such an assembly, is not an option. The two mounting points need to be addressed together...either leave them all bushed...or make them all solid. That's not rocket science...its just basic engineering.

You have an identical situation going on with the front axle bushings. It does no good to replace just the lower crossmember bushing, and leave the soft sloppy ones on the outboard mounts. The three bushings work together, and you need to make them all soft...or all firm. Otherwise, you're allowing a relatively flexible assembly (the axle housing in this case) to be pried and pulled apart from the inside forces. Just like the rack...movement between the three mounting points is what lets the axle push & pry itself apart. Outfitter Design understands this, and I think their axle bushing kit is the single biggest improvement you can make to the stock IFS. Period. (And no, I didn't get paid to say that).

On the rack issue...all of these guys are doing the same thing with the passenger-side clamp, so I don't even see enough difference to debate it. But, I'm all for the guy that includes solid d.s. bushings in his steering kit, because they need to be there. Unfortunately, I'm so confused from the numerous comparisons on this thread I can't tell which guy (or manufacturer) actually provides them.

So who includes the drivers-side bushings?
That's where I'm sending my money.
 
Last edited:

freeze

Well-Known Member
Messages
46
Location
New England
Outfitter Design includes Delrin Bushings. The Delrin essentially provides the same rigidity that the aluminum on the other side provides.
 

Bigunit

Hammer Down!
Staff member
Messages
6,561
Location
Arizona
More "internet wheeling". I see that everyone has an opinion about something they have never seen, held in their hands, installed on their rig & driven thousands of miles on with absolutely no issues. To sit at home, in front of a computer and try to explain a part and/or a component that they know absolutely nothing about, is irresponsible and misleading - and CJ in this cause you are 100% off base in your basic assumptions as their is something that you have left out in your analysis. Let's wait just a few more days before spewing this knowledge about "basic engineering" as there are always more than 1 way to skin a cat and always more than 1 solution to a problem - so for now, let's just say that time will tell and will all due respect, you just might be proven wrong.
 

jakesz28

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,056
Location
Cabool MO
4speed, if Dwaines answers my question earlier what I think he is doing is letting the rack float in the aluminum clamp. The way I think his works is a o-ring is what tries to capture the rack. So it essentially is still floating like the OEM clamp. I believe that is why he feels there is no need to alter the drivers side bushings. Which I would say is a good choice on a new rack. One with 60,000 miles on it most likely needs new bushings any ways.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
More "internet wheeling". I see that everyone has an opinion about something they have never seen, held in their hands, installed on their rig & driven thousands of miles on with absolutely no issues. To sit at home, in front of a computer and try to explain a part and/or a component that they know absolutely nothing about, is irresponsible and misleading - and CJ in this cause you are 100% off base in your basic assumptions as their is something that you have left out in your analysis.

This isn't complicated stuff though... it's not as if there's a lot of variables we're missing here that are up in the air. It grabs the passenger side of the rack, and holds it tight, both from bending, and from extending... how it does that is a slight variable, but that's the answer.

As to internet wheeling... for folks who haven't been through a few racks to say they think X is the way to go, seems far more of a reach than for us who HAVE been through it, have seen what breaks them & seen how they break, to talk about a fix, and what we feel is required for that fix to be effective.

Remove the emotional attachment to Dwaine & look at this objectively. Your comments are way defensive for a discussion about a simple part that does a simple thing. The only thing we're discussing is whether it's advantageous to rigidly clamp the driver's side or not. We can easily concede that Dwaine's clamp is the best one out there... ans STILL have this discussion. It's not an attack on him, but it's a discussion about whether a solution that addresses only one side can be a complete solution.

There's not some magic super-engineering marvel that can create rigidity from the passenger side, on the driver's side... there's just not. So after all that, it comes down to whether we need to solely be worried about "bending", which a wider, and very solid clamp can fix, or if we also need to be worried about the tensile strength of the pot metal housing.
 

backcountryislife

Well-Known Member
Messages
858
Location
Dumont, CO
Eventually, it will separate to the point (1/4" to 1/2") where the rigid PS fluid tube cracks and pukes the entire system out on the trail.

actually, I'd disagree with you on this one point. While I feel the rack will still break, if the clamp is held solidly, the amount of movement in the driver's side bushings (I feel) isn't enough to allow the line to crack without a decent amount of time driving it broken. the driver's side only has about 3/16" worth of flex I think... I just don't think that's enough to snap the line... it can move a little before that happens.

On the other hand... you've still got a snapped rack.

IMO, any complete fix requires what Hunner did to his, and Reaper & I copied from him (and reloader in a different & cheaper way) which is adding flex to the lines so that if it ever DOES break, you can safely get off the trail.
 
Top