So I leveled the front of my 09 H3 (I5)a few weeks ago and got an alignment. Now it seems that every time I go from a cold start and drive it feels like my front tires are pulling me in different directions, and the steering is rather erratic until I apply the breaks hard enough to push the front down (ie a hard stop). I measured the level to about 23.5in from the center hub, I didn't think that was too far. I have not installed bumps or stiffer shocks. Of all of the people on here that has leveled, am I frigg'n nuts having this oddity? :grind:
-
Welcome to H4O! For a reduced ad experience, please login or register with the forum.
Strange steering / handling after leveling front
- Thread starter delta88
- Start date
Mr_Rich
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 666
- Location
- Yucaipa & Santa Maria
Could it be that lifting the front end created less caster on the alignment causing more "twitchiness"? I'm kind of reluctant to mess with mine.
H3slate
Brush raked
- Messages
- 983
- Location
- Tualatin, Oregon
Could they have gotten the alignment wrong? I have had issues with a shop getting the alignment right on my leveled 3. Can you visually see anything wrong with the front end? Are the wheels both pointing in the exact same direction, do both tires look like the are exactly vertical? If you rub chalk or something across the entire treads on the front tires and drive for awhile you can see any unusual wear on your tires.
I have had the front end aligned three times and still don't feel they have it dialed in.
I have had the front end aligned three times and still don't feel they have it dialed in.
Bolt a winch and mount and brush guard up there.:shifty:
I have held off on this statement because I got tired of justifying it. Years ago somehow everybody started passing on the alignment theory and some people will swear by that always needing to be done without having actually been involved in doing it. I used a friends alignment set up after he got the software for the 06 H3. We checked it before and after I lifted it and it was a bit different but within specs. The main change I have seen after doing it several times on my 06 and now my 08 was the toe in changes when lifted. You can see how that happens by just jacking up an H3 and watch the tires.
That can be adjusted on a flat level surface.
That should not mean don't get an alignment if you have wheeled it offroad not kept it in specs and now have lifted it.
It is all affected by many factors, added weight on the front, larger tires, heavier wheels, tire pressure and wear, and stiffer torsions.
You just have to find what makes your Hummer happy! I have done lots of experimenting with mine and run it for miles without changing the alignment. That is the last step. I just chalk the tires from time to time and watch for abnormal wear and if it tracks straight and returns to center after turning I'm ok with it.
That should get some comments.
I then also figured out the BP tie rods and added those, longer anti-sway bar links, longer shocks and bumps.
Your getting increased OEM bump steer. It's there all the time you just made it worse.
Try coming back down in half inch increments and see if it quits.
The longer shocks and bump stops only affect topping out the shocks, (over extending) and the bumps help reduce nose dive when braking and some body roll. You did not mention these effects so going from that you got the front end dance.
Stiffer shocks will help hide some of that. I played with mine and tried different alignment specs rather than using the stock ones after lifting until that went away.
More weight on the front end also helped.
Double check that lift measurement from under the fender to center of axle. I always suggest using a square out from the axle and maybe even a level instead of bending a tape measure into the axle.
What size tires do you have? Are you running stock wheels?
Is your steering wheel leveled out after they did the alignment?
Did they tell you any adjustments they made and how much or just take your money?
Those lifetime alignments can pay off.
ps, and a loose pass side rack mount will induce more of this after lifting as now the tie rods are pushing up more than the in and out motion down lower.
It's ok, you can come back down until you have time to figure it out. But I would not do another alignment until you try some other things.
I have held off on this statement because I got tired of justifying it. Years ago somehow everybody started passing on the alignment theory and some people will swear by that always needing to be done without having actually been involved in doing it. I used a friends alignment set up after he got the software for the 06 H3. We checked it before and after I lifted it and it was a bit different but within specs. The main change I have seen after doing it several times on my 06 and now my 08 was the toe in changes when lifted. You can see how that happens by just jacking up an H3 and watch the tires.
That can be adjusted on a flat level surface.
That should not mean don't get an alignment if you have wheeled it offroad not kept it in specs and now have lifted it.
It is all affected by many factors, added weight on the front, larger tires, heavier wheels, tire pressure and wear, and stiffer torsions.
You just have to find what makes your Hummer happy! I have done lots of experimenting with mine and run it for miles without changing the alignment. That is the last step. I just chalk the tires from time to time and watch for abnormal wear and if it tracks straight and returns to center after turning I'm ok with it.
That should get some comments.
I then also figured out the BP tie rods and added those, longer anti-sway bar links, longer shocks and bumps.
Your getting increased OEM bump steer. It's there all the time you just made it worse.
Try coming back down in half inch increments and see if it quits.
The longer shocks and bump stops only affect topping out the shocks, (over extending) and the bumps help reduce nose dive when braking and some body roll. You did not mention these effects so going from that you got the front end dance.
Stiffer shocks will help hide some of that. I played with mine and tried different alignment specs rather than using the stock ones after lifting until that went away.
More weight on the front end also helped.
Double check that lift measurement from under the fender to center of axle. I always suggest using a square out from the axle and maybe even a level instead of bending a tape measure into the axle.
What size tires do you have? Are you running stock wheels?
Is your steering wheel leveled out after they did the alignment?
Did they tell you any adjustments they made and how much or just take your money?
Those lifetime alignments can pay off.
ps, and a loose pass side rack mount will induce more of this after lifting as now the tie rods are pushing up more than the in and out motion down lower.
It's ok, you can come back down until you have time to figure it out. But I would not do another alignment until you try some other things.
Last edited:
I have a stock Adventure with 33's (27k/mi) and you've hit the nail on the head by calling it the "front end dance" because that's what it feels like after driving a mile after a cold start. BUT it goes away after a few hard breaks when the front-end dips, then the wheels drive straight and I'm on my way just fine. I did get a before and after print-out of the alignment specs (see attachment). It's a decent shop and I've had them do good alignments on my '06 H3 (no leveling) before. Do you think it's possible that when the H3 sits long enough the torsion bars stiffen up until I break hard to put them down a little? Well, I suppose I'll crank the bolts down a tad before we get a ton of snow. When I climbed into the H3 this morning my review mirror reminded me that 5f is really sucks to do work outside! Thanks for the info, and like you said.. time for a winch and bumper! (I really like the THOR front bumper..)
A few observations.
- The truck pre alignment specs show a lot of change in one wheel vs. the other. Is the truck sitting level? Measure from the frame to the ground, not the fenders, it's more accurate. Make sure it's level.
- The truck now has zero toe. It could be that the suspension relaxing under load is causing toe out which will give you that "dance". As the geometry changes with lift, it's possible you need a little more toe than before. This would be consistent with the observation that a few hard braking events solves the issue. The would slightly settle the front end.
- Caster looks good.
If all else fails get the string and square out and align it yourself. The rack does not put the wheels under load like the street does so sometimes what it reports is not what is in fact happening when driving on real roads.
Frank
- The truck pre alignment specs show a lot of change in one wheel vs. the other. Is the truck sitting level? Measure from the frame to the ground, not the fenders, it's more accurate. Make sure it's level.
- The truck now has zero toe. It could be that the suspension relaxing under load is causing toe out which will give you that "dance". As the geometry changes with lift, it's possible you need a little more toe than before. This would be consistent with the observation that a few hard braking events solves the issue. The would slightly settle the front end.
- Caster looks good.
If all else fails get the string and square out and align it yourself. The rack does not put the wheels under load like the street does so sometimes what it reports is not what is in fact happening when driving on real roads.
Frank
Mr_Rich
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 666
- Location
- Yucaipa & Santa Maria
Wouldn't an increase in caster improve the stability? Has anyone tried that? It works on F-Bodies (Firebirds and Camaros)....
4speedfunk
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 4,250
- Location
- Tardville
String & square. Amen.
Mr_Rich
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 666
- Location
- Yucaipa & Santa Maria
I think we're going to need a short write-up after those last cryptic comments...;^)
Thanks guys for the tips. I'm going to check my leveling measurements again this Saturday w/ a level (supposed to be warm -- 45f !!) and adjust accordingly. I'll do the chalk lines as suggested after and talk to the alignment shop since it hasn't even been a month yet.
ha ha for my part I have found using the old string or stick or tape measure, or even a fancy portable alignment device like we used on the road with open wheel cars, consisting of some aluminum tubing and a sight across to the other side with a scaled reticle, having the front wheels on dollies lets you adjust the tire rods to set toe by allowing the wheels to move in or out. (like on an alignment rack) For zero of course the measurement from outside to outside of the tires front and back (on the front of course) would be .............the same. If you find a bit in or out helps your vehicle to track try that. The book does not usually take into account changing IFS angles and tire patch dimensions which at least for me has shown to affect ALL of the adjustments. Then go out and bounce over rocks all day long and expect it to drive like a Cadillac without some periodic adjustment is hopeful thinking. Especially if you have flexible tie rods. How do you think those settings change?
On the H3 I found this to be extremely helpful when repeatedly messing with my BP tie rods figuring out how to get them juuust rite! If you jack up an H3 you can see the wheels change toe, so rather than jack it up, adjust, let it down roll around check the results over and over you can get it real close on the dollies because the weight is on the wheels.
If it drives out well and you have even tire wear, it's close.
Just works for me.
orrr get a Firestone lifetime warranty alignment and keep taking it back until they get it right or run you off!
After getting the fancy software for the H3 and me not happy with the results, we finally had the "Old Guy" with a lifetime experience say "ya jus gotta adust it till it works with all that stuff ya dun toit"
In other words after you change the specs of your rig, I think it's luck if they adjust it by the "book" (for the standard set up) and it comes out right without scruffing off your tires and steering weird.
I guess some people have luck with that.
I'm going back out on the porch............
Just a quick update for anyone who wants to know (and for the archives) .. I loosened both tbar bolts 1/4th a turn and installed some rock sliders and so far so good. I really think that the cold weather has a lot to do with this, noting that this should probably be done in a warm garage or outside on a warm day. I had been cranking on these outside when the temps range between 25-35F which probably makes them stiffer (maybe somewhat unstable). I noticed on really cold mornings (like 0-10F) the problem worsened. Thanks for all the help!
You probably increased the toe a bit when you relaxed the bars and adding the extra weight of sliders. Temperature while making steel more brittle shouldn't make a problem like this worse. More likely the temperature of your tires and the ground was changing something like actual tire pressure and friction to exacerbate the issue.
Frank
Frank